Kaisha [00:00:03]:
All right, what's up, Gromies? Welcome to AROYA office hours, your source for free cannabis cultivation education. I'm your moderator, Kaisha, and we are on episode 128, shout out to our live viewers on YouTube and Instagram. Everyone tapping in on Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube or wherever you listen to your podcast. Thank you so much for your support. And if you like the pod, drop us a review. We appreciate the feedback. Jason, Seth and Sien are in the house today. Gentlemen, how are you?

Seth [00:00:29]:
Good.

Jason [00:00:29]:
All right.

Kaisha [00:00:30]:
Yeah, sweet.

Cian [00:00:31]:
Doing great, Kaisha.

Kaisha [00:00:32]:
Fantastic. Well, we've got a great question to start with. Shout out to our. Got some comments already coming in on YouTube. What's up? Anxiety and Nick March. All right, let's get going. This one was dropped by Van Stahlar. They wrote.

Kaisha [00:00:45]:
All right, please address. On a future podcast, you have fully rooted, healthy, vigorous clones in Rockwool starter cubes. You transplant them into correctly soaked weighed out Hugo cubes and apply an initial 1% shot. You then wait the approximately 5, 7 days for the 20 to 30% dryback which you have now achieved. And you are about to start your fertigation program. Question. Can you please walk me through how you do the initial irrigations? Do you apply the 3% shots until you see runoff, then wait several days until you see the 20 to 30% dryback again? Are you not going to runoff in the first few days of fertigation to encourage rooting? Basically. What's your theory on achieving runoff in the Hugos during the first few days after the initial transplant dryback? Thank you.

Kaisha [00:01:33]:
All right, guys.

Jason [00:01:34]:
Yeah, great question. You know, I actually don't mind doing like a few probably 2 to 3 1% irrigations throughout that period, really, just to encourage fresh oxygen, fresh nutrients to get there. We're never, probably ever going to have runoff targets until we're in flower, to be honest with you. We're just not pulling enough nutrients from that block to cause a significant imbalance. You know, especially if we're going from clones to Hugo's, we don't have that intermediate block size. We've got a lot more water and nutrients available to that plant. And so really those small shots are only going to be just, just helping bigger rate the plant growth with some oxygen and some nutrients. So, sure, you could wait those five to seven days and then start a regular irrigation.

Jason [00:02:28]:
You could get a couple of few shots in there. That's what I like to do is just to get some, like I said, fresh newts, fresh oxygen in there. As far as once you Are there? Obviously, we've still got a little bit of edge time left, not much different than that. I probably wouldn't even go to 3% shots. We definitely don't want much runoff unless. Unless we have some concerns about our nutrient regimen.

Seth [00:02:52]:
Yeah, I think part of it depends on what your goals with growing the Hugo are. If you're in a double stack situation with, let's say, 50 inches overhead, we're not looking at a very long veg time. We're trying to root that plant, get it up to like 12 to 16 inches and flip it. So at that point, what we're looking at doing is establishing that initial dryback, bringing it back up to field capacity, potentially drying it back out for a few more days. But after you achieve that initial dryback, the goal generally is to bring it back up to field capacity, and then if we go generative for a day, achieve at least 10% dryback, which in the Hugos is typically pretty easy. And I think once you're transplanting clones new Hugos, it's important to look at, like, what your overall plant size is gonna be. So, number one, like Jason said, we wanna hit that usually every day with some really small shots to try to force root production in that Hugo and take advantage of the fact that we are using rock one, we can push that much water in there while maintaining enough porosity to keep up with root health, keep enough oxygen in the root zone past that, though, ideally, like I said, we want to see that that initial dryback, bring it back up to field capacity, and then we're going right into our generative steer. Typically.

Seth [00:04:09]:
I think we've talked quite a bit on this podcast over the years about how a small, small media limits your ability to steer a plant once it gets above a certain size. So when we're talking about Hugos, an important thing to realize is how big of a plant you're growing, how much water that plant's going to uptake, and whether or not you're able to actually go back generative and finish that particular strain. And if you're in a situation where all of those things are possible because you're running a small plant, it's going to be a pretty similar pattern to anything else we like to run. Whether it's a 1 gallon, 2 gallon, 4x4 on a slab, we're looking for that initial dryback and back up to saturation. But that initial dryback is very important to establish that we've actually got water uptake from roots in the zone, in the Media that we really want to see it at.

Jason [00:05:01]:
And, you know, I think we've answered probably many of dozens of questions about red zone and, you know, appropriate substrate sizing. What it comes down to is just making the appropriate balance for how much water are we losing? For. For how much can we hold? Right. And so for how much water are we losing? We're looking at mostly transpiration, hopefully with a little bit of evaporation. Obviously, runoff should be pretty easy to account for. And then plant size, you know, that that's. That's what's causing those values to be larger or smaller. So just do some simple math and kind of get down to, all right, what's.

Jason [00:05:40]:
What's my balance there and what are my constraints as far as how long do I get to do purposeful crop steering in a smaller substrate?

Kaisha [00:05:52]:
Amazing. Yeah. Anything to add, Ian?

Cian [00:05:57]:
You know, I was just kind of thinking about it, and when you move from that. That rooted in rockwool block to a clone block, that is to a Hugo, one of the things I see people do really comm. Is kind of lean to the extremes on either side, whether they are, you know, pushing too hard, drying the plant back, or for that matter, over watering for those first few days. And I would just invite people to remember that as that clone block is rooting into your Hugo, it's still fragile on both ends of the spectrum, and you're really trying to just provide a friendly environment for it to root in. And kind of what Seth and Jason both said, veg for a few days as it starts to really take hold, and then as it does after that first big initial dryback in that, especially if you're in a low height and environment, like a double stack, moving pretty quickly into that generative steer from there and limiting the runoff during that first couple of days is really key to being able to make sure that you are actually getting that dry back that you want and establishing a good, strong, healthy root system.

Seth [00:07:18]:
Yeah, I think this is a good time to talk about sensor placement and some of the physics of what's going on as far as water is concerned inside of a. Especially a smaller media like Hugo. And I'm making this fun little drawing that's always back to our crayon drawings here. So if we look at the red, this is my sensor placement here, and I don't have more colors to work with, unfortunately, so bear with me. But our sensor placements down about an inch and a quarter from the bottom of the block. And the reason for that is we're targeting the point at which cohesion overcomes gravity. We're having the highest concentration of water, despite the fact that gravity is pulling down on that water content. And what we want to see is root penetration all the way down to this level that we're sensing.

Seth [00:08:06]:
And by achieving a 15 to 25% dryback down in this level, especially if we can concentrate that within the first three to five days of transplant, no matter which media we're in, that's an ideal timeframe. We can tell that if the sensed area is having water pulled out of it, we know that the roots are actually reaching down and pulling that out because it's much more difficult for the media to actually wick water upward than it is for roots to move down and actually pull it out of this suspended water table here. So that's part of why we talk about having a 15 to 25% dry bag before actually initiating a ramp up a P1 back to field capacity. Because we want to see that these roots have gone down. And utilizing the sensors, we can see that in water content without having to necessarily cut into a bunch of different pots and see if we've got white roots down at the bottom.

Jason [00:09:01]:
Yeah, I, I, I don't know that I've actually ever talked about this on the show, but square clone plugs don't go around holes very good. Like, I don't know why I'm still seeing this out in the field. I feel like we all learned this when we were three years old, when we couldn't fit the square blocks. There's a round hole, but just don't do that. Like order your plugs somewhere else. If you can't get the right ones, find another supplier. It's, you're just hurting yourself. And honestly, this is the time where we have the most to gain by doing things right.

Jason [00:09:37]:
So if you're going into a round hold, Hugo, for example, use round macro plugs, don't use AOKs.

Seth [00:09:48]:
Yeah, no, that's a great point. Match your cloning media to your actual vegging media. And if you're struggling with that, I promise you that there are a variety of products in the market that all work, provided you can figure out how to make them work for you. And it sounds like bad logic, but if they're being sold and being sold enough quantities that you see them year after year on the shelf, that means they are working for people. And you need to identify the variables that are preventing that from working for you.

Jason [00:10:19]:
You know, and square plugs are great. If you're going into Coco right from the square plug. But you know, when we try to smash those in there, where there's two things happening, one on the corners, we're smashing our Rockwool together. We're, we're jeopardizing the good properties of its water holding capacity. And then two, on the flat sides. You know, we're not matching, you know, we're not building any hydraulic conductivity when that rock wall has a big air gap between it. Right. And so, yeah, maybe if we've got really, really well rooted clones or we're going to see hydraulic connectivity to those roots just because they're in there or smashed in there.

Jason [00:10:59]:
But we want 100% of those roots, those little hairs to be in contact with available nutrients, oxygen and water. Right. And so that means that they are touching some part of Rockwell. We want rockwool touching Rockwool. If this is our process, well, that.

Seth [00:11:16]:
Goes back to timing your transplants. Whether it's from clone to, let's say a 4 inch cube or the 4 inch cube to the slab, one thing we want to target is hitting those roots at the point where they have optimal development for transplant. So we've got good, healthy roots coming out. They haven't necessarily been air pruned excessively and they're going to take right into that new media very aggressively. And if we've got any break in that process, we've got air pruning. And that's where sometimes, you know, adjusting your production flow for different strains does actually make sense. You know, we always try to say, like, hey, let's, let's have two weeks for our cloning period. But when you've dialed in a strain that can get transplanted at day 8 after cloning or day 10, sometimes there's a very significant advantage to recognizing that and actually transplanting them at the time when they would be most prime to take off into that new media and not waste any time air pruning, splitting roots or trying to adapt to it.

Seth [00:12:13]:
So that's why we'll see, you know, especially with slab growers, you know, in the four by fours, anywhere from a seven or eight day veg out to a 14. Because different strains and different moms will latch in at different times. And once you can actually, you know, harness that, basically record it and make it predictable, you can work with it. And that's part of the key to that whole cloning and veg process is consistency. And that's part of why we talk about chasing that consistency back all the way to your mom stock. Like Scene. I think you can comment on that over the years, talking like just age of moms, you know, how, how that affects rooting and clones. I'd love to hear your perspective because I know you had some over the years.

Cian [00:12:59]:
Absolutely. You know, for a few runs there, we kept moms going. I want to say the longest we did was maybe three full runs, which at the time, each flower run was, you know, two months inside the flower room and then swapping over. So six full months of time being alive for those moms being trimmed back again and again. And one of the things that we saw pretty frequently was that that type of stress would result in all sorts of fun morphological changes that we weren't seeing. When you had mom stock that was treated a little bit better, refreshed more frequently, things like differing leaf counts or just strange shapes in the way that the bud ended up forming comparative to previous rounds. And one of the other things that we saw also was higher mortality rates in the cloning process. We saw a higher frequency of low pith stems in the cuts that we took.

Cian [00:14:10]:
And that was really something we never had to deal with when we were doing one run of moms per one run of flower.

Seth [00:14:23]:
Yeah, freshness is very important, and I think it's one of those things that's tough to get clued into until you've had to run a large amount of clones and force yourself to maintain this mom population. You know, historically in a, in a smaller setting like seeing. Let's go back to the super silver haze days where you were at. I can't imagine the overage that was present that back then because we're talking way more than three or six months. Right? We're talking about like a year plus on a mom. You know, that was just something that people were used to dealing with at the time and it wasn't necessarily a huge problem. But now that we get to, you know, large, large scale commercial production and commodity prices and bottoming out in all ways of the market, like efficiency is everything there. And actually, it turns out it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to turn your mom crop over regularly.

Seth [00:15:23]:
You know, even if you're keeping a library and maintaining, okay, maybe I'm not going to run this strain for the next year. Does it take that much work to clone it every two months and repropagate it and start a new mom? The answer is no question.

Cian [00:15:37]:
You know, the other question to ask in that situation too is, you know, how much might it cost you if your genetic lineage is not going to perform as well in the future. You know, how much money are you leaving on the table by running something that's not going to perform the way that it's supposed to?

Jason [00:15:57]:
And you don't have to run a production mom stock. You can clone from your vegging production plan. So you just can't screw up if you're going to do that. So.

Seth [00:16:06]:
Or if you're going to do that, keep, keep some moms, do your production run and then have a little bit of backup so that if you have some problems, you can always go back to those moms and you can refresh that. It turns out like one pot plus a clone in it doesn't cost that much to maintain, especially if you have just a little bit of space. And that's, I think, where it's kind of important to recognize that in this industry, we're, we're kind of in this very much gray space. It's funny to say that in a lot of ways, but green space. Green space, yeah. Especially where depending on your regionality, your access to buying clones may be great. It may be the possibility might be zero. So evaluating what your capacity to do all that production in house and how much money and time you have to dedicate to that versus the ability to source outside clones and then also evaluate the risks that come with that.

Seth [00:17:06]:
Because if you can source everything, that's awesome. You know, if I was doing a cut flower nursery and I could source all my chrysanthemums, roses, everything else from tissue culture, that's. That's awesome. That's. That's a readily available industry that I can make a call and get that anywhere in the country. When it comes to clones in cannabis, that's a little bit different market. So I've definitely talked to customers that live in areas where they have great access to nurseries that do a good job, work with others that have absolutely no access to that. And I think it's important to recognize that when you're building a production system in a business, to look at that factor and say, hey, is there a standard model that actually fits us or are we kind of on our own and we need to look at best industry practices to build this pro, this little project and keep it going.

Seth [00:17:58]:
Because ultimately your mom and your clone production are kind of this tiny little business that feeds your real flower production business? And if that little business isn't working, you're never going to expect good results in the flower end.

Kaisha [00:18:16]:
That is facts. You guys gave Van Styler so much good stuff to think about. And then also to all the Grammys. We actually dropped a link to our education guide. We have written about rooting in best practices. So, you know, a little bit more resources for you. But thank you so much for that question. Great overview, you guys.

Kaisha [00:18:32]:
All right, we're going to get to these live questions. We got some chatty people in our YouTube. Love it. Okay, this one came from Boxwood Farmer. They posted, hey, I run a pretty generative fertigation schedule, but was thinking of throwing some P2s in around four to six, one to two times a week. Think it's a waste of time.

Jason [00:18:53]:
You might just do it every day after those weeks. I like, I. It's probably not a waste of time. No. Super easy to make those changes. It's only going to take you like two rounds probably to know if it was helpful or hurtful, depending on how consistent your rounds are. You know what, stranger run that type of stuff. I'd give it a shot.

Jason [00:19:15]:
Yeah.

Seth [00:19:15]:
I mean the key thing we see with some of these irrigation strategies is the. And that's why we talk about dryback mainly being your proportion of plant to pot size. Right. We're looking for a minimum to establish good root and plant health. Other than that, one of the big things we're looking at is maintaining that day to day consistency. So one thing I recommend to a lot of my customers is like, hey, if we're trying to get this to dry back, we've got a big pot, small plant, we're trying to drive root development, trying to get this to stack up. We're still going to irrigate at the same time every day. What we might be modulating is how much runoff we.

Seth [00:19:50]:
We're pushing off with that event and how much actual water we're putting on as a result of trying to modulate that whether that runoff event is. 0, 2%, 5%, 20%. That's what we're looking at doing. And one thing that I know, I have noticed, I think Jason, seeing you have noticed, seeing especially looking at your data, is that consistency on the actual watering time. Because when we look at the matrix potential of any of these medias, right, like the difference between 20 and 60% is very minimal in terms of how much energy is required of the plant to pull it out, to pull the water out of the media. So what we're looking at is that plant's responding to a very rigid diet, I guess to say better than anything else. And like ourselves, if you manage to eat at exactly the same time every day with exactly the Same feed. You're going to find yourself on a cycle where your body's performing naturally.

Seth [00:20:42]:
And granted, mammals versus plants, but plants do still respond to regularly scheduled stimulus and being fed enough in those stimulus events to achieve maximum performance.

Jason [00:20:57]:
I think one of the things that you can kind of look at is what is your water content loss in respect to photo period. Right. So obviously, you know, when I've showed this elbow many of times is basically one of the first things that I look at when I'm working with a new client's data, and that is when your lights come on or when your lights go off. What's the difference in your water content loss per rate, per hour, per minute, whatever. Oh, yeah, blue. Perfect. That's for water.

Seth [00:21:29]:
We're trying here.

Jason [00:21:31]:
So let me get some access here. Let's go. Sunshine and a moon. Sunshine again. All right, so what Seth's talking about is obviously, you know, these plants are extremely di. Neural. We have different activities both chemically and physically going on with the plant day to night. So when we obviously irrigate, we'll call this a generative cycle just because it's a little bit easier.

Jason [00:21:58]:
The lights on. All right, maybe we'll get some more arrows in here as well. So obviously, right here, you know, beginning here, we're getting photosynthetic activity that's engaging. You know, that that plant's starting to develop that. And studies show. I think I'm always referring to Dr. Justice at the hemp mine as far as some of the. These traits go.

Jason [00:22:29]:
And, and she's got a great article on it using some. Some light core stal conductance meters. So, you know, when obviously that the photosynthetic rate is reaching maximum, it takes about 45 minutes for the. The plant cells in cannabis specifically. And, and that's an approximate. Some, some specific strains are going to go a little faster depending on obviously environmental and light wavelength factors, intensity, CO2 levels, et cetera. But obviously you want to irrigate. But really what I'm talking about is the difference here from when our photosynthesis happening versus photosynthesis not happening.

Jason [00:23:07]:
Right. So when we think about here, this is transpiration plus evaporation. This section here is obviously mostly just evaporation because we're not getting any photons to activate that photosynthesis. If we don't have a. An elbow here in the rate that our water content losses, we know that our plants aren't transpiring enough or we have too much evaporation.

Seth [00:23:31]:
Maybe a good way to put that is if this slope is approaching flat. We have a problem. Sure. If it's going. If we don't see an elbow here and it's going too deep, that might mean we have some overnight humidity and temperature issues. It could evaporation over the top or.

Jason [00:23:46]:
We'Re in mesh bags. Too big a hot side.

Seth [00:23:48]:
Exactly.

Jason [00:23:49]:
That's kind of what got me kicked off.

Seth [00:23:50]:
But usually we want to see a slowdown in overnight water loss.

Cian [00:23:53]:
Yeah.

Seth [00:23:53]:
Because we don't have light coming in.

Jason [00:23:55]:
The bigger difference here basically means, you know, our pot size ratio is good to amount of transpiration that we're getting.

Seth [00:24:01]:
Yep. Right.

Jason [00:24:02]:
And so that's one thing that we're definitely looking at. But you know, as Seth's talking about is, all right, every, every 24 hours, you know, we're expecting this same repeat. And sure. If we start manipulating an irrigate when we hit a water content, for example, or where it's steering only based on ec, we're going to start messing with these charts and it's going to make it much harder to get predictable results for the plan.

Seth [00:24:27]:
Yep, exactly. We want to have that daily uniformity that we can count on. And I think the important thing that we spend a lot of time to clients talking about and man, I joke about this a lot, but there's a lot of crossover between fishermen and cannabis growers. Bigger is better, right? You know, as you talk about it more and more when we're talking about dryback numbers, they're bigger, isn't always better. And the dryback number is actually very, very dependent on the media that you're running in. If I'm running in a 2 gallon or a 3 gallon pot with a lot more porosity, and I'm only hitting 43 VWC at field capacity, I'm certainly not looking for a 30% VWC dryback. And it's very important for growers to understand that that dryback number is a relative number that's representative of our plant size, pot size and environmental conditions. But one thing I like to do, and I know all three of us like to do, is step back and go, okay, what volume of water does that actually represent? And when I compare that to if I have the right notes and the right tracking on different runs, I can eventually figure out that, hey, a plant of this strain at 4 1/2, 5ft tall takes up a certain amount of water based on leaf area index, no matter what size pot it's in.

Seth [00:25:49]:
And I need to understand that the action on these plants is actually that length of dryback in terms of time more than it is in terms of how deep it goes, because that's a number that I can absolutely adjust by changing out literally nothing else than my, my media volume. And once I understand that, I can figure out, okay, I need these plants to be drinking up x amount of water at a certain size to maintain a healthy size and yield. When I start to go under that amount of water, I start to see yield depression as a result of water availability. And then also if I have too small of a median, I'm drying out too hard to the point where I'm actually flirting with temporary wilting point. Now I'm really influencing plant efficiency even if I have my environmental state, environment stabilized to the point where I'm optimizing it. So I think that's very important for growers to understand. Like what, what. When we're talking about dryback percentages, there's two things.

Seth [00:26:47]:
Number one, make sure, if you want to listen to our advice, you're looking at VWC and not saturation. Not that saturation is bad by any means, but we keep everything on a scale that we can measure versus something a little bit more ambiguous. Ambiguous, like 50% of the weight's gone. That's tangible. We went next level with vwc. Make sure you're not intersecting or overcrossing like those two ideas when you're looking at dryback. And then look at the minimums. You know, like the big thing we're looking back at dryback is if, hey, if it's, if it's getting less than 10 to 15% on any given medium, we're looking for anaerobic conditions, root rot or a plant health issue.

Seth [00:27:31]:
Because we know that in an appropriate size media, we should be exceeding 10% dryback per day no matter what. And if not, again, too big a media for commercial production as we typically see it out in the industry, or a plant health issue. And if we've got, you know, know, bacterial infection, fungal infection, viroid problems, we're not going to see the same performance out of the plant. And it's really important for a cultivator to understand where the difference lies between plant disease and plant response to what you're doing. Because sometimes it can take you a few runs to actually figure that out.

Jason [00:28:12]:
Unfortunately, sometimes it's both.

Seth [00:28:14]:
Yeah, absolutely. Know, we look at root rot. If you're sitting there around week six, seven, eight, like, why do I have a branch that dies here and there? Like, well, you, you might have some root rot issues. We can sol. We can, we can identify that. But what is the problem? And that problem may be way back in your mom's, you know, which is the hard part to say. Like, okay, we have. It's much scarier to change something way at the beginning than it is to say, okay, can I prevent that at week two.

Jason [00:28:46]:
Yeah. You know, one of the things with cannabis that's really fun is, you know, industry is starting to get really competitive with how we're doing some of these things, right. And you know, one of my favorite cocoa brands here, this just within the last six or eight months they've released cocos between one and two gallons, which, you know, if you watch this show much, you know that this, this is where we'd like to play because, well, it's the most efficient, right. It gives us the biggest opportunity to, you know, work with our automated systems and start tweaking it, right? It's like, all right, sure, I get a ton of power out of a carbureted car, but it's always going to take me probably more gas than it would out of a EFI type of system.

Seth [00:29:31]:
More jets, you got to change.

Jason [00:29:33]:
Yeah, yeah.

Seth [00:29:34]:
You know, whereas get a kit with 60 jets in it versus. Versus a tunable dial.

Jason [00:29:40]:
Yeah, yeah. And when we get, when we start to get to that leading edge of competitive or at least somewhere that's maybe just fun because it's easier to play around with. You know, between that one and two gallon depending on our, you know, transpirations that plant to substrate size, we get a play within those, say 20 to, you know, 45 or 70% water content depending on what type of plant plant you're playing with. And in these hydroponic medias, our water content, as long as we're inside of those ranges really doesn't matter to the plant at all really. What matters is how much that is dissolved oxygen. What is our EC doing in trending as far as osmotic differential between the plant and the red zone? So, you know, kind of keep that in mind. Like, and maybe this comes back to earlier is like, don't let your supplier restrict you to the options of what, what you're growing with. You know, if you only have the options of one or two gallon cocoa and you need a one and a quarter or one and a half gallon cocoa, go find someone else to work with.

Jason [00:30:45]:
Find someone that, that's going to get you what you need to make your life easier.

Seth [00:30:48]:
Yeah, I think one thing we can't drive home. And I'll make a fun visual here. These red dots Represent irrigations, right? And I didn't have a vertical cursor to make this perfect. So please excuse a little bit of inaccuracy, but never, never happens. Right, Jason? But in reality, if we're looking at a generative steer with, let's say, four one day, five shots to the next, here's what we see on the graph. We see rising and falling trends over time. The plant doesn't operate in 3D when we put it in a media like this. Here's what the plant scenes season responds to.

Seth [00:31:26]:
Each of these red dots is an irrigation event that's dragging oxygen in behind it and raising the vwc, which strategic for our purposes because we never want to fall below a certain content. However, this is what the plant responds to. And that's why I really want to put this up to drive home that we're looking for this space or lack of space and then frequency of irrigation much more than we're looking for the biggest dryback possible. And it's really, I think, important to hammer home that this loss here is a totally different factor than what these shots are doing. And we need to remember that. Because even if I've got, let's say, a plant that does have root rot issues, if I'm achieving a certain amount of dryback, you know, maybe I get 80% off that plant, but it doesn't mean that I killed 20% of that plant either. And then if we can identify that, like, hey, we've got some pythium or fusarium issues that are preventing our plants from reaching their full potential, we need to solve that. However, we might be able to run this room in a way that we don't see any plant death or dropped branches or anything like that.

Seth [00:32:36]:
So I think that's one thing for growers to wrap their mind around is we've got a current situation, a problem that we're dealing with. It doesn't necessarily mean total crop loss if managed properly. And then fortunately in cannabis, we don't have to wait till next year. The next run's either one or two or three weeks behind generally. So you have the opportunity to fix that problem before it becomes such a long term damaging effect on your business progressed over years, which is a huge advantage in growing indoor and turning many crops a year compared to like, hey, it's October. We molded a bunch of stuff out, we're out of money for the year. We can all be thankful that not only the industry, but just controlled ag offers us that possibility.

Kaisha [00:33:28]:
You guys rock. That is so good. I actually think you may have covered another question I was going to ask. But we do have a question in the bank related kind of to this topic. Volumetric water content. Let me dig into this one. It came from the real Flava Dave. They wrote, hey, y'all having a weird thing going on with water content.

Kaisha [00:33:45]:
We usually hit BWC around 65% in 1 gallon quick fills. This time we're running 1.5 gallons and the VWC is getting way high, like 75 to 80%. I usually see the VWC decrease over time, but I've never seen it increase. Also I've never seen it go up to 75%. Plus it looks like they're using kayak core quick fills. What's your advice?

Jason [00:34:07]:
And I think we hit some of this question or most of this question here. A couple episode or two ago we talked a little bit about, you know, checking the height on those sensors, right? And so we, you know, go over some recommendations on the, the heights that we had worked with. Obviously there's some newer substrate sizes available on the market before we built that template out. And so really, you know, what we were doing there is just trying to approximate how, you know, how can we make this easy for people, right? Rather than saying hey, you need to put your sensor at 1.67328 inches above the bottom, you know, which, which ones are sharing similarities and where we get the best data from. For most people in most applications in, you know, something like, you know those kayer one and a half, it might be that if you want the absolute perfect water content from there, you need to get your kitchen scale out. You need to do a quick absolute water test at the saturation and put your sensor in there and determine exactly what that height is. You'll see me probably way too often encouraging people do this test for nothing else. It just gives you a really good hands on feel and trust and understanding.

Jason [00:35:20]:
You're calibrating, you know, not only the height of the sensor but you're calibrating yourself and you should be doing the same ways to see what the EC ph of the runoff of a new cocoa is anyways. So you know, get, get that in there and then, you know, if that's giving you a much more acceptable number, start using that, that template across the board, you know, if it helps you translate. That being said, you know, sometimes there are other things that can cause those numbers to be different and that test is also going to help you rule those out, right? So if we are looking at cocos that are are chippier. Our cocos that are our pithy or I always call it the coke, the coffee ground cocoa. It's going to hold a little bit more water content when we're in the really stuff.

Seth [00:36:06]:
If it's real bad, huh? Stuff. Yeah, good old Copenhagen if it's real muddy.

Jason [00:36:12]:
Yeah, yeah.

Seth [00:36:13]:
But I think an important thing there to, to recognize is that, you know, we're what we're looking for when it comes to dryback, whether it's saturation or vwc. Is that delta basically the difference between your highest point and your lowest point and plant health. So when we look at traditional soil science, if I'm trying to amend the soil in my garden or on my farm to give me the best production outside, I'm working with a mineral based soil that has generally porosity issues. Not everywhere, but if I'm not in there manually making that more porous, I've probably got a drainage issue and that's going to, you know, not work with me to promote plant health. Luckily, if we take a media that has a decent amount of porosity and we put it up on an elevated platform, raised bed, or in our case a raised plant bench, gravity is in our favor. It's going to drain that media pretty well. And compared to some of the traditional soil science that says we need, you know, 20 to 30% porosity, we can actually achieve that in some of these hydroponic media at a much higher water concentration level. So when we're talking about Rockwool, that Rockwell up, you know, occupies like 3 to 6% of that actual volume space.

Seth [00:37:28]:
So even though in Rockwell, if we hit, let's say 80% or 80% VWC at field capacity per met as measured, as long as we're seeing a 20 to 25% dryback, that's operating in a range where we're actually getting enough oxygen at those rates and keeping them healthy. And the same can go with cocoa. So if we've got, let's say a finer grind that's contributing to a smaller pore space, we are going to see more water in a concentrated area. Now, once we take gravity into effect, being that, hey, just as Jason said, that sensory installation height, we're always shooting for the sensor to give us, you know, it's got a very small sample volume, what you stab it into centimeter or two around, that's what it's measuring. So if we take that gravity gradient into account, we're always getting higher and higher water content going down. And that's balanced by how fine of a grind we have on that path. How big the pore spaces? Smaller pore spaces will hold more water just due to cohesion, we don't have as much of a gap for that water to bridge across and hold itself with polarity. So once we hit that point, we're dealing with a media that actually kind of bucks the old school trends of what we know to be effective when it comes to soil science.

Seth [00:38:41]:
And we have to look at that delta and that oxygen infiltration. And that's where it's important to look at. Your right back to, you know, I think Mikey nailed it a few weeks ago. The best fertilizers to grow or shadow. Get in there and watch that. If you're in a one and a half gallon and you're hitting 80, 85% VWC at an inch and a quarter up, first recommendation back to what Jason said. Scoot that sensor up, move it up an inch, all the way to the top and map that out. See what you're seeing in that pot.

Seth [00:39:12]:
Move it back down to the recommended height. Run your irrigation strategy. And then one thing I always recommend to my clients is at the end of a run, whether that run was really shitty or really good, excuse my language. I like to say that because sometimes, like you, you can over water the point where your. Your pots smell bad after you move everything out of the room. Not saying I've done that or seen it, but if that's not the case, or if that is the case, every once in a while, cut into your root balls and see what's going on. Especially, like, right that day of harvest before they've had a chance to rot or dry down or anything. Because if you're hitting, let's say, 85% VWC, but you go down into that bottom two inches and you see beautiful, white, healthy roots, you don't have a problem at all.

Seth [00:40:00]:
You just need to understand the delta that you're operating off of and the volume of water. You need to refill that delta every day and modulate your runoff.

Jason [00:40:08]:
I cut into the red zone every time I harvest. Yeah. For me, it's like more probably more instantly gratifying of a harvest than even like what might seem like pudding, right? Yeah.

Seth [00:40:20]:
Yeah.

Jason [00:40:21]:
Just like instantly. I'm like, all right, this could be a good one. Like, we can see the root health.

Seth [00:40:25]:
Yep.

Cian [00:40:26]:
I sometimes actually, it's kind of funny. I feel like I'm more excited sometimes to cut the, like a slab open after a round that's done well than I am to figure out the yield numbers, which might sound funny, but, like, when you don't have any visual cues on it, except for seeing like the, the bag around the slab kind of grow and roil with what looks like roots under the surface. You're like, I bet that one's gonna be cool looking when we're done. Well, I think that's one of my favorite parts, dude.

Seth [00:40:57]:
One thing I want to point out, like, if you have a good slab going, you get roots on the bottom that are almost as thick. Thick as this marker shank right here. Maybe not as quite. I've also run two gallons. Where? Down at the bottom. Two inches. My roots look like wool. You know, they're super fragmented out.

Seth [00:41:17]:
But guess what? Identical yields between the two runs.

Cian [00:41:21]:
Well, and so to that point, lots of those times where I've seen weird big numbers in my, my VWC have been moments where, you know, if I do open up a bag and look at the roots, that's where I'm seeing, you know, really aggressive, beautiful, thick, white roots growing in there. And like you guys said, you have to at certain points kind of step back and realize that the numbers aren't going to be a uniform scale across the board. And there's a lot of different factors that can play into how those sensors read. And, you know, you have to correlate what you're seeing in the numbers to your plant health every single time that you're looking at these graphs and using the information to be able to drive what your decisions are.

Seth [00:42:05]:
Dude. My favorite example is a 2 gallon, 70, 30 pot. If you rock that thing just perfect with like a six and a half foot plant at the end of it. You can just, you know, you just chop your plant. You can grab that stem, pull it out, and you're like, where the hell did cocoa go? Yeah, this is just a root ball. And same thing. You can run the same size plant on a Rockwell slab and then look at it and see visually different root development. But they will both be strong and they will both have a similar yield.

Jason [00:42:34]:
Yeah. So, you know, you guys know how I love wrapping an episode together, going back to hydraulic conductivity and, you know, Rockwell touching itself. So you got to be a little careful with your slabs. Don't, don't let your team get too wide wild with those things. I cut into some slabs where the actual rock wool was, you know, jeopardized. Either got folded up too much or someone picked up half the bag, like too high. That type of stuff. The rock wool had the fibers broken apart and no Root growth there.

Seth [00:43:06]:
I'm just gonna interrupt you for a second. Think your rock wool like cotton candy. When you try to pick it up and touch it, you're. Those pore spaces are so small and those fibers are so thin. There's no way you can pick, pick up, wet a wet slab and not damage its integrity. Even if you don't feel like it's that bad. If we had a way to look at it, you'd see fingerprints on the bottom from everywhere you grabbed it. That's how, that's how fragile it really is.

Seth [00:43:32]:
It really is like fiberglass insulation. It is fiberglass fiber rock.

Jason [00:43:38]:
Yeah. Basalt insulation.

Kaisha [00:43:42]:
The nerdiness is real right now.

Seth [00:43:44]:
No, but really, like, you know, that's, that's one thing I think that really is a challenge to rockwool growers, especially coming from cocoa or a living soil type situation, is you want to grab that media and pick it up. That when we get to the slabs, unless you, you know, put everything in like a leech tray or a Dutch leech tray is like my most common thing that I recommend to people. Unless you have that rigid tray, you can't actually tactically sense that media without damaging it. And then when you project, like, hey, I go in there every day and like grab slabs, try to pick them up again. If we could look back and see your fingerprints as bruises, it would look horrible across that room, you know, and all the little lost efficiency. And that's one thing that's hard because when we're talking about crop steering, it absolutely is something you can do by hand feel if you have the time and the capability to get in there. And when we bring technology in, that's where we're looking at, you know, being able to expand the growers range of view and give them the tools to actually use that intuitive knowledge to drive results long term.

Kaisha [00:44:56]:
All right, thank you guys for that. Appreciate the question to real flavor, Dave. And sorry guys if I repeated it, but clearly we had some stuff tough to say about it. All right, y'all, we're going to keep it moving. We've gotten a lot of questions coming in, y'all. We're going to do our best to get to as many as we can, but you know how we do, it's all about cultivating conversation. We did get a little post here from igrow Dabs. They wrote you guys are rad.

Kaisha [00:45:21]:
I can't watch live this week, but following up from last week on increasing feed EC to correct runoff pH drop seems to be working well. Thank you Guys, for the insight, we appreciate you updating us. I grow dabs. Keep up the good work. All right, we got this post, this question posted from Vanxiety. They wrote what is an acceptable difference between two plants as far as substrate ec using two sensors, of course. What do you guys think?

Jason [00:45:49]:
How many plants are we growing? Two plants. Are we growing like 200 sensors and two of them.

Seth [00:45:54]:
Yeah, that's kind of where it comes in is what is your population, how big is your facility, what's your ability to maintain and eliminate microclimates? And one of the, one of the trends we see though typically is too little EC is far more damaging than slightly too much. So much like water content in a hydroponic situation, we'd rather run EC on slightly the high, higher end. And if you're on the lower end, usually that's we're seeing like, you know, below a 4 EC in the root zone might see some yellowing growth, some slight stress look. And oftentimes that'll correspond with low ph. So as far as acceptable range, Jason, we can talk about some big rooms. We're looking at like what, a 6 ec difference? No problem.

Jason [00:46:44]:
Yeah, I kind of like to go back to my good old 2,000 square foot grower room with, you know, 20 sensors in it. I would try not. I wouldn't want to have six ec.

Seth [00:46:59]:
Three.

Jason [00:47:00]:
Yeah, three.

Seth [00:47:01]:
If you, if you can't get it inside of that, you have some plant uniformity issues that you need to tackle.

Jason [00:47:05]:
Yeah. And so that's going to depend on where your EC is at as well. Like I wouldn't want to be at, you know, two and five.

Seth [00:47:13]:
Right.

Jason [00:47:14]:
For my ecs. Like one plant's at two, that plant's not going to be doing good. Maybe it looks okay, but it's not going to be doing as well as it could be doing. But now if I'm looking at like 6 and 9. Yeah, that's probably a pretty good.

Seth [00:47:28]:
Yeah. I mean I think the thing to accept here is like we're, we're in a hydroponic medium so that higher EC is going to put more osmotic stress on the roots. If we do that slow enough, the roots can absolutely adapt to that provided we give them enough of the right things. And again, we are in a hydroponic situation. You're. Whether it's cocoa rockwool, it's not that much different than a bubble bucket. If we want to go back old school. And in these hydroponic situations we're not relying on microbes or anything.

Seth [00:47:56]:
Else to regulate that nutrient uptake, we provide the raw ingredients the plant wants and it uptakes what it's need, what it needs. With the exception of nitrate, which is the one nutrient we can actually force everything else, the plant uptakes what it needs and dumps the rest. That's why like when we, you know, talk about plant nutrition, it's unfortunately from an application side, way less exciting than looking at a leaf and saying, hey, that's got a calcium deficiency, that's got a magnesium deficiency. Okay, how do I correct that? Stack it up, give it more. You know, rarely do we actually see toxicities in hydroponic applications that are well managed as long as PH is in range. And if we do see toxicities that's, you know, related to water quality and fallout issues where the plants aren't getting what they need or they're getting the wrong ratio.

Kaisha [00:48:47]:
Yep, fantastic. And Banxiety just posted. Thanks guys, appreciate the answer. We appreciate your question. Bangxiety. All right, you guys mentioned microclimates in your answer. So I'm going to go to this question from Instagram on that very topic. North Fork Farms dropped this one.

Kaisha [00:49:03]:
Hey guys, I was wondering if you could talk about Shaffer HFA fan placement. Our rooms are about 25 by 30 and the online recommendations say only two fans per room. Doesn't that seem a bit low? Battling microclimates. Thank you.

Jason [00:49:18]:
Depends what else is going on in there.

Seth [00:49:20]:
Sizing too, you know. What's your broadcast distance for me?

Jason [00:49:27]:
Yeah, directional fans are not my favorite way of providing airflow in our room. They are typically moving a lot of air at high velocities. You've heard this a lot of times on the show. I love H vac socks. I love distributed venting. So that might be some might be ducting across the room, that type of stuff. Sure. You know, a directional fan like that is okay, but you know, I'd prefer to have more low airflow, you know, so I want high volume, low velocity.

Jason [00:50:05]:
Right. Sometimes I'll do that. You know, if I'm in a greenhouse, I like to do that. Sometimes the carpet fans move some cold air across the bottom. You know, even the socks, the duck socks on the benches. So these multi tier companies right now are coming out with some kind of interesting solutions for doing distributed air across a room like that. You know, in a 20 by 50. I, I wouldn't personally be happy with two Shaffer fans if that was, you know, if that was my only option.

Jason [00:50:36]:
I, I would, I would, I would.

Seth [00:50:38]:
Expect right Right back to round pegs and square holes. So we look at these Shaffer fans, we have a dissipation of energy that goes away from them. Right. So if we're looking for optimal coverage for an area, even if this, the outside radius of the Shaffer band fan fan is going to project to reaches the sides of your room, the amount of airflow that we're actually getting inside of this curve is much less than way at the end here because we have dissipation of wind energy just because it's farther from the fan. Right. Friction in the air. So an important thing to look at is, hey, hanging this one Shaffer is going to give me this much result. Typically where we see the best results going to the more modern room builds are using ducting and oftentimes soft ducting to try to direct the airflow where you want to go while maintaining a easily serviceable and replaceable unit.

Seth [00:51:31]:
Because when we look at things like PM detritus contamination, specifically PM detritus is pretty easy to get rid of. But you got to clean the insides of those vents. They're circulating air into and out of your room. And while Shaffer fans are awesome for big floor spaces where we can actually optimize, like, hey, we've got a circle, circle, circle. We got 12 of these circles inside of this room. That's the best we can do. If you got 25 by 30, there's probably a lot more optimization you can do. Generally might be a little higher effort, but if you walk around with an anemometer after you put those Shaffer fans in, I guarantee you'll be a little bit disappointed at the microclimates that end up being built out of a room like that.

Seth [00:52:17]:
Seeing you can probably comment on your.

Cian [00:52:19]:
Your small room size, I can definitely comment on that. I've got twice as many of those Shaffers. They may be a smaller diameter, smaller motor size fan potentially, but I've got four of them in a smaller space and I never bring them up very high in power. What I generally have found works well with those fans is not to use them as a direct fan blowing into my crops for any reason, but to create a circular air current in my room. And if you have the situation where you've already bought these Shaffer fans, instead of using them to try and push air directly through your crop, you know, potentially maybe get one or two more of those to do something similar and create an air current through helps homogenize that space.

Jason [00:53:10]:
Yeah. And it, you know, so I just kind of Seen was talking about what I was drawing, which is fantastic. You know, if you got two fans in here that are directional fans is get them pushing in a, a counterclockwise or clockwise direction. Right. So we're actually, we're actually using these high velocity fans to just move bulk air. Right. We're not necessarily scrubbing the micro environments. And that's why I like in canopy especially getting some inflow, low velocity, you know, can pe down like through the rows.

Jason [00:53:45]:
That type of stuff is. Because now we're just getting a little bit of flicker on those leaves. We're breaking up those micro environments that are around the leaf surface, which is the most important environment for plant growth.

Seth [00:53:55]:
So yeah, let's, let's draw a comparison there. Versus when we're not optimizing that, we're creating several distinct microclimates by not optimizing that airflow.

Jason [00:54:09]:
Yeah. And a lot of this goes into here.

Seth [00:54:11]:
We don't, we don't have that. We just have out.

Jason [00:54:13]:
I, I could also bring, I could bring up that, that cool time series creating that we did of temperatures in a room where we can actually see the locations of the, the AC output and some of that types of stuff. And so when we think about airflow, really what we want to do is we want to get stuff that's dispersiated from any localized changes environment as quickly as possible. Right. So you know, maybe if I had a H vac vent right here, then then that'd be a pretty good spot for that fan.

Cian [00:54:50]:
Right.

Jason [00:54:51]:
It's, it's immediately getting distributed somewhat up, somewhat down. Who knows where my lines are going because I'm doing it in the camera and you know, and then hopefully getting some get blended through here, that type of stuff.

Seth [00:55:04]:
I, I think what we're looking at that people really need to be thinking about is complementary airflow, not fighting airflow.

Jason [00:55:12]:
Yeah.

Seth [00:55:12]:
You know, in many things we want to work with the most energy efficient option here to achieve the best result. And by the time, you know, if in this circle I can walk around this room and at most points if I hit it here, here, here and here, and I'm still getting close to 3 meters a second per airflow, I've got plenty, you know. And then the next thing we would talk about there is stratification. Have you created a situation where only the top foot of your canopy is actually getting that airflow or do we need to work around getting that lower into the canopy because we're seeing high humidity? So.

Jason [00:55:51]:
You'Re gonna give me Short story.

Seth [00:55:52]:
Long, Shaffer fans are great. Try to use them appropriately. And one of the best things I think you can do is go buy an, just a cheap anemometer and try to find those dead spots. It's like I can't see air moving. You know, none of us can. And you might see some behavior on your, your actual canopy, your leaf tips and stuff, but, but until you really find some of those areas, it's hard to map out. And one thing I can say from experience that you don't want to do is not optimize this and hit the point where you're finding like black mold over here and stuff like that as the indicator. You know, we ideally have technology so we can be a little bit ahead of using things like fungus.

Seth [00:56:37]:
Like, you know, I love lichenology. You can look at the lichens on rocks in an area and determine the air quality and how polluted it is. We don't need to be doing that in our grow rooms, you know, and.

Jason [00:56:51]:
I'm so glad people are watching this podcast to get some of this information. Most of the information that I tell you people about is, you know, comes from like university extension manuals and stuff. You know, you can get out on the web and you can download it few hundred page manual from like MSU and they'll, they'll give you pretty much all of the scientific and application breakdowns of what we're trying to tell you about right here. Sure, you're gonna have to read a lot longer. Hopefully they're not as funny as we are, but, but that's where a lot of this comes from. It's been studied, it works. We've done it in application. So, you know, don't kill yourself over this stuff.

Jason [00:57:31]:
Kind of, kind of do what is logical, if logical is obvious.

Seth [00:57:36]:
You know, don't, don't feel scared to reach out to. Most states have land grant university, that's an ag school if you want to know where I got my start in greenhouse, I was managing greenhouses in this area for the ag extension offices, local universities. What that provided me was a wealth of knowledge on how to operate a greenhouse in our specific climate. Which sucks, you know, to put it bluntly, as far as, you know, the optimal crop to grow things like cannabis or produce. But take advantage of that because hey, it's free information of someone who's tried to do the same thing you're trying to do, maybe with different crops, but they're still dealing with the same differentials outside to inside to maintain healthy growth conditions. And that's one thing, you know, both of you guys can comment to, working with people in different areas. I love using like Seattle versus Phoenix as an example. You know, in Seattle, we're really struggling to maintain humidity at all times.

Seth [00:58:41]:
Just like here in Eastern Washington, right up against the Rockies, we get a lot of high humidity. If I go down to Phoenix, exactly the opposite thing. I can look at something in early flower and be like, hey guys. Oh man, we're struggling to get above a 1.0 like your guys. We need a lot more dehu there. I go into Phoenix, I'm like, you want to go put up, take a hose and just spray down the floor, like start trying to get something in there. And they're like, we're trying, we just can't get anything. I'm like, yeah, it's 6% humidity outside, just sucking everything out of the building.

Seth [00:59:11]:
They didn't need to talk to me to learn that. There's plenty of, you know, high tech indoor cultivations in Arizona and university resources sources to rate and understand that in Arizona you're going to need a lot of humidification capacity to be able to run a grow room pretty much period, any time of the year except during the monsoons. And that's a small time of the year compared to the rest of your life there.

Cian [00:59:38]:
Absolutely. Climate differences are going to predict a lot of how you run specific things about your specific facility or grow. I know for me, there's definitely a learning curve trying to understand that I both need more humidification capacity to be able to keep up with just how dry my specific climate is. And then because of the propensity of my room to grow a large density of plant matter. I also need more dehumidification than I was originally anticipating during certain times of my run than was readily apparent to me thinking how dry my climate is at start in the first place. So, you know, I had to make adjustments to that, add more dehumidification as well as more humidification capacity to my system to be able to compensate for what was happening in my specific area. And I think a lot of people, like Seth was saying, are readily aware when they start, you know, talking to you about what the challenges they face in their specific areas are. They'll tell you right away, man, oh, I cannot keep this crop wet enough in here if it's in Arizona or the opposite.

Cian [01:00:52]:
Like you were saying up in the Pacific Northwest, where everything just wants to stay wet pretty much all year round.

Seth [01:00:58]:
Yeah, I mean, it affects how you're going to spec out your grow room and facility. I don't, I don't need the amount of AC that anyone below, you know, 39 degrees north needs. Like, it doesn't get hot here, just not really an issue. Other areas, definitely the space and the more data you can get and look at what people are doing in a similar space to try to set yourself up, the better experience you're going to have. Not fighting it. You know, we, in cannabis we have to talk about, like, hey, we're, we're pushing biomass in a controlled area farther than any other crop has before, but I can't think of a single vegetable or greenhouse crop that doesn't experience powdery mildew. So, like, we're, we're all fighting some of the same battles and there's a lot of good science to go off of. And it's, it's very, very important to take advantage of that because one awesome thing is, hey, over the last 100 plus years as a country, we actually have put a lot of money into researching how to best grow things.

Seth [01:02:08]:
Take advantage of that. Just because we're in cannabis and there's not like a compendium of research on our specific crop doesn't mean that we don't have a lot of research to look at. As far as plant growth principles, greenhouse operation principles, the simple physics of managing humidity in a controlled space, all of that is incredibly relevant. And when you go to source data and information down that route, oftentimes you find things that are vetted out over and over. And right now we're in an emerging space in the cannabis industry where there's good information, there's bad information, there's a lot of neutral information because, well, I talked to a lot of people that happen to cut their teeth growing in, let's say, Central California, where their climate is pretty bomb for that compared to up here. Okay. They just haven't hit some of the challenges. So when they go to grow in like New Jersey or New York or a different climate, they're faced with something that is incredibly challenging.

Seth [01:03:17]:
And the more successful people I know know how to go find those resources and look up the information they need to start to do some of those very real calculations about what they need for H vac capacity and go from there.

Kaisha [01:03:33]:
I think that's a perfect way to wrap up the episode. You know, we're all about the science, but we're, we're talking about there's all kinds of resources out there available for y'all if we don't address your specific question. But with that said, thank you to everybody who, who came on today watching us drop questions in the chat. If we didn't get to it, don't worry, we're gonna, we're gonna be back next week and we're gonna go ahead and wrap it up. So seth, Jason, and C.N. thank you guys so much. Producer Chris, couldn't do this without you. Thank you so much for this awesome show today.

Kaisha [01:04:04]:
Thanks for everyone for joining us for this episode. If you want to learn more about Arroya, book a demo at Aroya IO and our team will show you the ins and outs of the ultimate cannabis cultivation platform. If you have any crops during your cultivation, questions you want us to cover if we didn't get to your today, like I said, don't worry, we're going to be back. Drop them anytime in the Arya app. Email us at Sales Royale. Send us a DM via Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn. We definitely want to hear from you. If you're a fan of the pod, please leave us a review on Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Kaisha [01:04:33]:
We really appreciate your feedback and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube so you never miss an episode. Thanks, y'all. See you at episode 129. Bye.

Jason [01:04:41]:
That.